Section8-titanal - Page 2

I pressed the ski, did all the finish work on it, base grind, edge sharpening, wax, etc. I put the titanal on the top layer. I split the titanal in half. The titanal did extend over the bindings area. There was no problem trimming the titanal. The ski is not overly stiff. A single full sheet would have been ok IMO. The flex felt a bit soft since I did not use any carbon. The flex felt similar to my Fischer RC4.

I’ll use a binding with a plate. I think it should initiate turns well.

Cadman- yes I agree that layups are tically done so that the same materials are used above and below the core. But I found many higher end skis and snowboards will add a single layer of metal, usually on the top. I haven’t noticed any loss of camber or other abnormalities.

Btw I used flax instead of Fg. So this could be the first Flax/titanal Ski.

So did you get the kind of improved grip on firm snow or race course ice that you were looking for?

I'm getting ready to do a beer league racer and would like some insight on using one layer or if I should use two, and you talked about shaving down your core to maybe 10 to accommodate the layers of titanal. Was that necessary? Or do you think the core was ok at your normal thickness?

I measured the core and it’s 10mm under foot. I raced on it last week in our beer league and it was good. Conditions were typical frozen granular with a hard base underneath. It held excellent! I was really happy with it. They engaged turns smoothly and good grip in the turn.

It’s fun to free ski on too. It’s a bit soft but not overly so. I think a second layer would be perfect.

Here’s the final specs :

180cm, 114-68-100 16.5m radius

Sintered base

Edges

Vds over edges

Cork between edges

Flax

Wood core

Titanal 2.75in wide, full length of ski, vds on both sides of titanal.

Flax

Makore veneer

Ipe sidewall.

I put a 1degree bevel on the base edge and 3 degree bevel on the side edge. Beveled the sidewall to 10 degrees.

Entropy resin used

So is it better than my Atomic Redster? Reluctantly no but it so damn close. The Atomic is 184cm heavier and feels a little damper. But given the materials I’m using, making it more eco friendly, it’s a winner!

Well thanks! That's what I was wanting to hear. I'm going about it a little different but that gives me a good place to start.[/list]

Keep us posted on your build. I’d be interested in seeing how it comes out.

Love it Steve!! I may finally play with some metal this season.

For me I'd probably recess the metal in the core. Maybe a 2.5"wide strip down the center.

I'd like to cut out a mesh pattern like the Nordicas a couple years ago but I have to figure out the CNC part of that.

I debated whether or not to recess the titanal on the last pair I just made. I only put it in the binding area. The core was already at 10.5mm so I decided not to. The ski is 165cm for a ski coach for training. I used flax and CF in the lay up.

So I made the skis. They are;

Base ptex

Titanal( between the edge tangs, and full length)

20 oz. Fiberglass

Core

20oz. Fiberglass

Titanal( 36" centered on boot center) biaxial c/f the rest of the way, both ways

Nylon topsheet

112 tip 68 mid 99 tail

17.5 m sidecut

11.5 core thickness in middle

They came out kinda stiffr than I thought, but not bad. About the same as Volkle codes.

Nothing that I can't bend in a turn. Feels like they'll hold well witch iis what I was going for.

I gotta get them in for a stone grind, then I'll mount them up and ski em.

I'll give report soon

By the way vinman, cutting that stuff is very tough. I'm a former tin nocker so I have good snips. It just doesn't cut good, it splinters and chips. It's very weird stuff. Not ductile at all, breaks when bent

Art, score and snap.

Watch the donek vid eh?

https://youtu.be/_61vcevx_3g

Score it with a razor firmly and then snap it. Smooth out the rough edge with a fine file or sand paper. I put the titanal against the core. But I’ve seen it done both ways.

Thanks guys, I'll try that next time

So, now that we're back up and running.

My new skis are most satisfactory! Like I said in a previous post, they are about the stiffness of Volkl codes. Stif to med stiff. They grip the race course/ ice very well. The Titanal makes them super damp. The carbon gives them some pop at the end of the turn/ transition. My weight is 180 and I I made them 174, should have went a little longer. 180 maybe. Live and learn.

I've skied them in a few different conditions and they handle very well. Old school, new school equally well. Would love to try some more Titanal in my other designs and will do in the future. I wasn't sure how much the Titanal would affect the stiffness, but it's not a lot.

Over all very Happy

Tried to add some pics, but got a note that the files were too big

just regular pics.

> artski wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:28 am
Tried to add some pics, but got a note that the files were too big

just regular pics.

The max file size is currently 1MB, so you'll need to resize your pics down a bit. The error message was quite poor, so I went ahead and modified the upload script to tell you the relevant sizes. Hopefully that helps! See here for note and any changes: http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =14&t=5383

> vinman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:25 am
Love it Steve!! I may finally play with some metal this season.

For me I'd probably recess the metal in the core. Maybe a 2.5"wide strip down the center.

I'd like to cut out a mesh pattern like the Nordicas a couple years ago but I have to figure out the CNC part of that.

I get the McNichols Metal catalog and have looked at the various mesh and perforated AL and stainless steel. It was stupid expensive and I’m not sure if the AL is high enough quality for skis. I liked the perforated AL idea though, I think it would give the damp characteristics you want and bond well. Not giving up on the idea, just need to find a reasonable source.

Looking for feedback for those who have used titanal.

I made a sample layup about 6in x 8in using 2layers of titanal .6mm thick, bought it from Skilab. Bottom layer used VDS, the top layer didn’t. I wanted to see if VDS helped or not with bonding. Here are the details of the layup:

Ptex base

Flax

VDS, titanal, VDS

Poplar veneer 1.5mm thick

Titanal

Flax

I used Entropy resin. Pressed at 45psi for 8hrs.

I haven’t trimmed the flashing off yet. The bonding of titanal looks fine so far on both sides. The problem is I can not bend the sample layup. I mean it’s rock solid. I know many race skis and others use 2 layers of titanal, yet they flex. Is it because the sample is small and just can’t apply enough pressure?

I’m think of using only 1 layer of titanal but should it be on the top or bottom? Many manufactures use titanal/AL for binding retention, so I’m thinking a full layer on top.

Thanks.

.6 sounds crazy thick. If u wanna do 2 layers i have calced .3.

What are ypu trying to acheive?

Stiffness longitudenally?

Tortional stiffness?

Dampness from metal weight?

What flax weight are u useing?

Ive done 6x6inch layups with triax glass and 1/4" ply cant bend them.

Some race skis just have one layer of light weight biax and then the titanal.

Going for a race inspired ski. .6mm is typical for a race ski. My atomics have a double layer. The flax is 350gsm (10.3oz) biax. Going for dampness. I have no problem going with 1 layer, just not sure if it should go on the bottom or top. Leaning toward top to aid in binding retention.

After my sample cures for a few days I’ll try to peel it apart to see how well it holds.

Ideally I’d like to use titanal that’s 2.5 - 3 in wide in stead of 5.5in wide. But this is all I’ve found so far.

> skidesmond wrote:

Ideally I’d like to use titanal that’s 2.5 - 3 in wide in stead of 5.5in wide. But this is all I’ve found so far.

Dont u just score and snap?

Idk. I cut the sample pieces using tin snips. Not the best way to cut metal. I could try the score and snap method.

The donek video explins how to cut this material.

One thing we learned is: Never ever touch it with your bare hands! The grease on your hands will significantly reduce its bonding properties.

Thanks. Found the video. In the same video he does the layup,it’s interesting that the titanal is not next to the wood core, the CF is. That’s the opposite that I’ve seen on many of the race and higher end skis. Found a few that have the titanal away from the wood core... guess it depend

Update: the bond between the titanal and other laminates is 100% a-ok. I trimmed the flashing off to a smooth edge. The piece doesn’t flex but the bond is fine. Tried to separate the laminates with a hammer and screw driver and ended up splitting the poplar and the other bonds stayed intact. Even the side without the VDS was fine. I’ll still stick with using VDS for its other properties.

Now it figure out how much titanal is enough. I’m leaning toward just a strip down the middle on top and bottom.

Any updates? I want to play with titanal.... especially now that I have the CNC and can recess it in the core easily....

Still gathering info.... Trying to figure out how much titanal to use. In my atomics it has 2 full width sheets but the ski is not overly stiff. Based on my sample piece, which is about 6x8 it won’t flex at all. So I’m leery about using 2 full sheets. Also looks like my atomics don’t have tip fill, based on measuring the thickness of the tip.

Contemplating cutting the titanal in half and use 1 on the bottom and 1 on top and see how that works. Probably have to adjust the thickness of the wood core downward too, maybe to 10mm. Still need enough thickness for bindings... a lot to consider.

Aluflex are using the titanal as topsheet. There in business for long time and guess where the name is coming from

http://aluflex-fiberflex-greensnowboard.com/3-aluflex

For anyone who has used titanal or any metal in their layup... How does the router handle cutting through the metal when beveling the sidewall?? Thinking of using full width titanal. Figured I’d post the question before I ruin a bit or worse ruin the ski. I’m assuming bits of metal will be flying around...

Ive milled the al channel used in snowboards.

Ive heard in those big cnc flash machines they run glycol to cool the bit. Ive heard a bit of vaseline on the bit can help. Yes ot will dull the bit more but u can do it

Update... I used the router to trim the edge of the sample piece I made and it does work ok. I took a minute shaving off, a bit scary, I think it dulls the router bit pretty quick. Obviously bits of AL scatter about. The titanal Edge had tiny ridges from the router bit which would/should be sanded out.

I think a full width titanal maybe over kill in this particle ski design and be too stiff. For that reason along with the scary factor, I decided to split the titanal in half and use 1 piece on the top of the wood core for each ski.

To split the titanal use a razor and carefully score it. It took me a few passes with the razor, but it does work.

Hope to do the layup tomorrow.

[quote="skidesmond" Going for dampness. I have no problem going with 1 layer, just not sure if it should go on the bottom or top. Leaning toward top to aid in binding retention.

Just curious about using one layer of metal. I was taught that you want to create equilibrium in your layup to avoid your ski turning into a "bimetal spring" when your go out on the slope and the ski changes temperature.

Have you ever sighted down your ski after hot waxing it? That will give you

an idea of what happens when the temperatures change on one side of the ski. That is also of good example of what happens in the press when you make the top and bottom temperatures different.

sounds insane thick. In the event that u wanna complete 2 layers I have calced .3.

What are ypu attempting to acheive?

Firmness longitudenally?

Tortional firmness?

Sogginess from metal weight?

What flax weight are u useing?

Ive done 6x6inch layups with triax glass and 1/4" utilize cant twist them.

Some race skis simply have one layer of light weight biax and after that the titanal.

My main goal is to achieve a damp ski that handles like a race ski that's torsional stiff, grips ice well yet bends longitudinally.

I made a test piece also, but can't recall the exact size and dimensions, probably 6x12inch. 1/16in ash veneer with flax, .6 titanal, on each side of the ash, bonded with entropy resin. I could not bend it no matter what. I placed 2 bricks under it and stood in the middle of the sample and it did not flex. Long story short the sample piece doesn't represent a ski. Although it did tell me that I was able to bond all that material with any problems.

The flax is a biax weave 350 gsm. Honestly the ski is not thick at all.

There are many skis on the market that have 1 layer of metal on top, not just race skis.

Thanks for the information.

Hi,

I've done some bonding test between titanal and wood.

The first time cleaning titanal with acetone, in the second sanding it.

In both case I haven't had good results.

Some advice? How do you treat titanal before bonding?

Thanks

acid & vds rubber. you need to break the oxidation layer and keep a flexible bonding

Depending on where you're getting your titanal it should be treated already. Also use VDS rubber on each side, it seems to help in bonding and provides a sheer layer just like for your edges. If you're using a super high grade AL then you'll want to treat it with acid. It will pit the AL which helps bonding.

> skidesmond wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:54 am
Depending on where you're getting your titanal it should be treated already. Also use VDS rubber on each side, it seems to help in bonding and provides a sheer layer just like for your edges. If you're using a super high grade AL then you'll want to treat it with acid. It will pit the AL which helps bonding.

Thanks! What kind of acid is used?

Phosphoric acid you can use. Btw the treatment from factory doesnt hold very long. This from the experience of some friends who are working with this material

Phosphoric Acid Anodize (PAA) is one of the best bonding preps out there. Pretty much the "gold standard" for metal bonding prep. At work we have PAA done on aluminum coupons for adhesive characterization tests that we use in the Inston tensile tester. As an alternative I have had good results using a chromate conversion coating as a bond prep on aluminum is skis. Search for MIL-DTL-5541. Acid etch and Alodine is a common trade name for this process.