:: View topic - Graphics and top and base materials

Miller Studio in Auburn, WA www.millerstudio.net

We have been in the business of board graphics since 1981. We carry, order and import materials from Isosport, Crown, Transilwrap, La/es, CPS and more for the water, snow and skate producers in the US, Canada, Europe and China.

Our graphic services include but are not limited to:

digital sublimation papers

screenprint sublimation papers

sublimation transfer to pbt and nylons

direct epoxy printing of base material

direct epoxy printing of top materials

We carry a few bread and butter materials in white gloss pbt fleeced backed, white gloss nylon sanded and flamed, and clear Isosport 8210 nylon, Crown base and many other materials on request. We also carry a variety of specialty fabric and plastic materials mostly for water sports...some of which has carried over into snow manufacturing.

Where have you been all of my life (and maybe speaking for eveyone here)!

Anyways, I have always been curious about direct printing, is it epoxy through an inkjet printer? Catalyst and all? Does it need a flood coat, or do you print white as well?

I am sick of Iso PBT, the durability is crap. I would take crown UHMW any day over that stuff, if only I could get good results printing on it (sublimating).

Thanks for posting!!!

The direct printing is epoxy via screenprinting with catalyst and all. We ONLY use Basler epoxy from Switzerland on all European nylon materials and some base printing. We also print some Crown and Isosport base products with a Us made ink that we helped develop a couple decades ago.

Basler developed a specialized was to print via inkjet, however it proved too costly to take on. They only sold a few and they went to huge manufacturers.

We have eventually sampled and moved all of our ski manufacturers over to nylon to avoid the chipping in production and when the tips cross. The majority do sublimation on white nylon and quite a few are building with epoxy printed clear nylons. Quite a few of my clear nylon customers are building with blank sheets or minimal graphics to show core/carbon or layered graphics (fabrics, paper wood burns on the core etc.)

I always tell my customers that nylon is not for everybody so test test test. Once in a while we heard of poor bond results with nylon to only find that too much pressure and/or not enough resin saturation as the culprit. We do not build boards and because we work with such a wide variety of builders from big to small with varying resin and construction methods that all we can do is repeat the word...test test test.

Just want to give a shout out to Miller Studios. I have been using PBT topsheets for a few years and this year decided to build cap skis (i accually finally figured it out) so decided to go with the thinner nylon material from Miller for a easier sidewall wrap. I have to say the product is so much nicer than the PBT. It is way easier to work with, lighter, and sooooo much more durable. The service they provided me is top notch. I always recieve my product in just a day or so, even before I get a invoice. I give there service, and product an A plus. Check it out, you won't be disapointed....kt

Why has Miller Studio been a secret for so long unless I have missed something?

I just hope you are ok with small orders as in "I just need one of these printed, not 500."

I would love to try out the nylon topsheet as I find the PBT to be a bit chip prone.

Anyone have rough pricing? Im also interested in nylon as the small underbrush has the sides of my topsheet look like it was media blasted with 3/4 stone, and i only have maby 10 days on it

-Jacob

Thanks for the shout out KT. We do not have problems with knocking out single top sheets other than we need to somehow cover the costs of producing singles. A lot is based on length and quantity per image. We typically start at $40 for pbt tops in typical snowboard lengths and $45 for nylon in those same dimensions. We custom quote larger quantities.

BTW If anyone wants to chat, see material samples or discuss finished product on the floor at SIA in Denver, Craig and I will be doing a one day trip on Friday the 27th from about 11am to 7pm. Drop me an e-mail and we will make sure to hook up.

For what it's worth Vince is a real nice guy. I ordered some ISO from him about a month ago (going to order more by the way next pay day in about a week). Shipping is fast and he processes right away. Great email contact and on the phone. Super helpful and doesn't mind answering all of your questions.

Can you give us a price list on our raw materials? I looked on your we site but did not see anything. The more choices we have for materials the better.

I do not have an open price list for all my materials and services. I can make one if you want but the pricing will be high to protect myself. The price of the material, value of the Euro, shipping and customs costs are always different, so all I can solidly quote is what is presently on my floor. If you e-mail me with your material needs and volume, I can quote accordingly.

Hi Vince!

I am very interested in printed nylon topsheets. I use the vacuum method. What would you recommend? Most impotant of all, Do you ship to Sweden?

Thanks/Marcus

Yes, we can ship anywhere. I just sent a 20lb box of t-nuts to Austria and it only cost $48 US. International Flat Rate boxes by USPS are great!

Drop me an e-mail if you haven't already

vince@millerstudio.net

Just want to vouch for Vince, I had them sub a nylon topsheet for me and picked it up yesterday. Excellent work, very impressive client list, and to top it all off an incredibly nice guy!

Thanks for taking the time to show me around, I'll let you know how the skis go!

Was Miller studio Creative Edge in the past where Iggy got his original graphics printed for ON3P? Seems too much of a coincidence that there are 2 ski graphics companies in Auburn!

I started the business in 1981 as Industrial Screenprint doing production runs of graphics for water and snow sports companies and bus advertising. In 1999, we joined forces with the Yoshida group when they were building the M3 brand and used the name Creative Edge. After the brand was sold, we continued to work with Yoshida's other water, snow and golf companies. Once they sold all interest in all sporting goods companies, we worked the company back fully in my hands by 2009. At that time, I created the dba name Miller Studio, to better encompass the screenprinting, digital printing and photography that we now do. Same people all those years...first location in Kent until 1995, then Auburn.

do you do graphic designing or only printing?

Our main focus has been producing products from supplied graphics. Most of the brands we work with have specific designs and looks ready to go. We have designed graphics, and we help many clients adjust their graphics so they work better. Typically, it will be cheaper to find someone to build your graphics from scratch for a negotiated flat fee. Paying anybody, including ourselves, an hourly shop rate can sometimes be more costly than you think.

One more vouch for Vince, I picked up yet another top sheet this week and it looks amazing. Laying up two pairs tomorrow with tops from them.

Thanks Vince!

Yeah that stuff is the bomb. Did a test layup and the iso clear nylon and had better bonding on the side i addtionally flame treated just prior to layup. Test test test.

stuff looks amazing. Hope you got lots on order vince. Thanks again for being avaible to us.

That was a little jumbled... But I think you told me to flame, so I will, good to know

. Excited to use the nylon!

I got a few topsheets from these guys last week as well. The quality looks really good and im excited to layup a ski.

A quick question, you guys are saying you flamed the nylon topsheet prior to layup?

Vince did the tops and bases for 2007 production line and 2008 prototypes for a company I worked for. The graphic work was amazing, top quality product was delivered.

I flamed the nylon on the two pairs I just did, had no bonding issues what so ever.

I purchased a roll of clear nylon from Vince about a year ago. I will never look back when it comes to nylon topsheet this stuff is light, durable, and readily available.

Another recommendation for Vince. We have ordered from a few different places over the last couple years and he has been amazing for quality and service.

Vince - Have you printed on Crown UHMW topsheets? If so, how do they turn out? Wanted to give those a try but wasn't sure if you were printing on them? -Bill

my $.02 about Crown's uhmw topsheet.

Its too strong

So?

ok, so laminates dont bond as strong as we think they do.

Crowns base... well it's the exact same pretty much, just thicker. Difference being, it's protected by the edge material which provides a barrier between the plastic and its environment, against delam shots.

Any topsheet is exposed and vulnerable to dings, chips, etc.

So, something happens: you hit a rock, or maybe the board woke up on the wrong side of the bed, and got a pin-hole delam on it. It lifts a pinch... now you have a tiny delam. OK no problem... this is where the "its too strong" comes into play.

It doesnt chip or peel. As it delams it pulls on its surrounding bonded material and lifts that off too... until the entire perimeter of your ski/board is delamed. The only way i've stopped it is to cut it where it starts delaming.

A coex pbt topsheet will chip and flake when it delams, its uglier but in a sense more durable. Sometimes less is more

Crown reluctantly serves the needs of the builders as a whole.

So what is the functional difference between teh nylon with fleece and the nylon sanded as far as image quality and bonding. Also when you flame treat the nylon prior to layup does it effect the graphics at all?

On the graphics and reason for sanded vs fleece - The white nylons (sanded or fleeced) both sublimate equally as they are the same nylon. Almost all of my customers use the sanded because it's cheaper, and many say it uses less resin hence less weight etc. I did have a couple people...one I consider a major manufacturer and a home builder...that had bond problems. This accounts to less than a couple percent of all the white nylon tops I've done over the years. With every other customer calling it the best stuff ever, I felt the best option I could do for some is to bring in a roll with fleece. Partly to give them an option and more than once I have had discussions with people moving to nylon but stayed with pbt because they only had experience with that and fleece bonding and didn't want to experiment at that time.

On building with nylons - We do not build boards and because we work with so many people using so many techniques the best we can do is listen to them...their process...their needs..and show them the products available and educate them as to what has worked in the various industries or products. I will say over the years the only fails we have seen in fleeced product is lack of resin saturation. It's almost a fail safe and that is why so many people like pbt...plus it's the cheapest and most available product out there. As far as the sanded nylons...as near a home run as I've ever seen. It costs a bit more but so many people like the reduced weight, the feel of the product and the fact it doesn't chip like pbt. PBT does continue to be the staple for most snowboards, but not a single ski customer of mine uses pbt any more. I have seen the highest percentage of fails in the clear nylons. Built and designed correctly, I have seen great results from product we have printed including all the great looks you can get from pearls, metallics, flakes, florescents, top print effects and carbon or wood show-through giving results that are stunning. Of course many readers here cannot go through an expensive print process, but still I see great innovations and custom made product from people buying blank clear materials from us. The two things I have heard more than anything as possible culprits for nylon fails are not enough resin and/or too much pressure. Beyond that all I can say is test test test.

Yes we print on Crown top sheet and base sheets with epoxy. It works great with zero bond problems. As far as final product look and use on the hill I will leave that to personal choice and need.

We have had people ask if we sublimate Crown. We not not. The ink migration in that material is too great. I've seen too few successes and too many fails with that process including color transfer into other objects/products and continual migration over time that kills the graphic. Kind of like the grease that quickly climbs up your paper sack of french fries...

I want to reiterate a question from pg1: can you direct print white? How is the clarity of a minimal graphic on a carbon background with this method?

We have done many one (or more) color prints for showing carbon, wood, special "glass" (anyone ever tried a cloth made of flax??...we printed a sheet to showcase it). We have had carbon customers print single color graphics in white or lighter colors with great success. Sometimes we have to hit the white twice or some colors might need a white backup for opacity and color pop against the carbon. For people showing wood, we are usually asked to print a darker color. So the answer is yes, I have seen some very creative graphic uses in 1-3 colors that showcase the construction. Because we have to make a film and go through a press run and epoxy mix for each color, it is expensive for a handful of parts, but really affordable even at what might be considered small volumes. The 8210 is the most expensive material to use, but we have seen many times that a well executed graphic with proper volumes can render a top of the line top sheet at the same cost (or less) than a sublimated sheet of pbt.

Send us an e-mail with your graphic idea and we will tell you the pros and cons.

vince@millerstudio.net

I forgot to mention some other great methods of printing for a carbon look. Just this week alone we did water, snow and skate prints that either had silver, gold, car flake, car pearl and/or fluorescent pigments. All of these give your product a great look, something you can't get with sublimation and stand out great against carbon and black backgrounds.